1. Limping w/aces from EP always, always, always gets me in trouble. Mostly because, as you said, they are so fricking hard to get away from after the flop.

Posted at 3:41PM on Jun 9th 2006 by drjgame

2. Okay, let's check the play...

1. You'd established a wild reputation by playing a bunch of hands recently, but wasn't forced to show any down. That would increase the chance of your raise getting called.

2. You continued with your standard raise with AA, which I feel was the absolute correct play based on the image you had. You want to get called by one or two players, and, ideally, reraised. You probably got more than you hoped in this case.

3. You made a strong post-flop bet at a scary board. You made that bet to get enough information to make a good choice after their action. I would read the initial call as a flush or straight draw. The question, then, is what to do about the pusher.

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You apparently put him on a "squeeze play." I'd like to know how you made that read. Had he been an especially tricky or experienced player? The "squeeze play" isn't run of the mill. Frankly, the push tells me his hand is made, but he doesn't want two potential drawers seeing a turn on a scary flop. That seemed to be the initial read that you pushed yourself off of.

Getting married to Aces or Kings is an easy way to go broke. An overpair looks worse and worse when you get called and raised all-in after a scary flop.

The question you must ask yourself is what hand he would make that move with. Would he straight bluff to push two people out of the pot? Two people who had already made significant contributions? That's a bold, risky play. Would he make the play with ATs? Maybe if he's given the indication of playing lots of hands. Again, doesn't feel right. Would he have called pre-flop with J9 or 69? Not likely. Maybe J9s, and if it's hearts, you're still in trouble. Would he semi-bluff with a heart draw and overcards? I might. That's reasonable. Would he make the play with QQ or KK? I surely would.

That means there's a range of hands you're ahead of (JJ, QQ, KK, and any flush or straight draw), and a range of hands you're behind (77, 88, TT... and the less likely straight or two pair).

It's a tough lay down. However, your initial read was you were beat. Many times, your initial read is based on subconscious information of your opponent's play. It shouldn't be ignored. And absent information to the contrary, perhaps your initial read was best.

Of course, hindsight is easy. There's a good chance I make the same call you do. You wanted to play AA to a big pot in a middle stage of a tourney, but ran into a set. It happens. Sets are often hard to read. If you call and he flips KK, you're a genius.

Posted at 5:08PM on Jun 9th 2006 by CJ

3. I think I will disagree somewhat with CJ. Not that it would have made a lot of difference in the way the hand turned out, but I think one thing that may have worked against you was making a standard raise in that position, i.e. UTG. Because you have so many people to act behind you, you increase your chances of *several* people calling you instead of just one or two, and that's what you got. If you make a slightly larger than standard raise, say 4 or 5XBB, you might drive out more of the drawing hands while allowing stronger hands like AK, KK, QQ, maybe JJ to call. If you are in later position and you get folds in front of you, you can make a smaller raise because you don't have to fear as many callers that might draw out on you. Since the villain had you covered, he might have called a 5XBB raise with 77 anyway and still beat you. Or, he might have laid it down if he didn't like that hand against that large a raise.

After the flop, the pot-sized bet looks right. The push behind you would have scared me too, and I can see why the call would not have been an easy one. But I will agree with CJ that you should not ignore your instincts. Those subconscious reads that you get on other players can be right on the money a lot of times. On the other hand, there are lots worse hands that you can get all the chips in with than AA.

Posted at 7:41PM on Jun 9th 2006 by Dave Westbay

4. I understand your point, Dave, but since three straight standard raises earned the blinds, I'd be worried an UTG raise that was suddenly bigger would guarantee nothing but the blinds. You want action with AA... a thin field, of course... but action nonetheless. A 4xBB wouldn't have been bad. It's actually one of the reasons I consistently vary my raise between 3x and 4xBB... and I don't vary based on the strength of my hand or my position... I vary it often enough so that when I do need to affect the betting, I'm not necessarily giving away the strength of my hand.

Posted at 1:24AM on Jun 10th 2006 by CJ

5. Wil, you say you "learned" not to talk yourself into a call when you know you're beat... but I swear this isn't the first time I've read about you "learning" that "lesson". Stop talking yourself into calling!

Posted at 9:05AM on Jun 10th 2006 by Ryan Waddell

6. I agree with Dave. I think the fact that you had been on a rush and had not been showing down hands lowered the calling requirements for your raises. Someone who has made up their mind to punish you will do it if you raise 3x or 8x the bb. I'm not convinced a larger raise would be read as anything more than you varying your already (recently perceived) loose play.

We all know that ideally (with aces) you want to be heads up with that one person who is tired of taking your crap. If you have been taking down a lot of pots, odds are somebody is seeing red.

With your current wild table image, a limp UTG might be see as a continuation of the loose play from the previous rounds--you could be perceived as being particularly weak. Possibly someone would try narrow down the field for you(odds are the 77 would have done just that). From there you just reraise 3-4 times his raise and watch him squirm, plus you have all of the dead money equity from the other limpers that should have folded by now. A reraise from him would be followed by another reraise from you. If he is a decent player, hopefully at this point he has put you on AA or KK. Just like Phil Gordon says: "The fourth raise means aces"

In the low limit games(under $10) I would even consider moving all-in with the aces after taking down several pots uncontested. More than half the time someone will call with Ax.

It was a rough flop for you and you would have had to take the pot down before it came.

Posted at 4:52PM on Jun 12th 2006 by joshman

7. I don't know how I gave the impression that I limped UTG. I didn't; I made the same raise I'd made from any position while I was on this little rush of cards: 3x the BB. I rarely vary my bets around that amount, because I don't want to do anything that would give away the strength of my hand. The only way I'll do that is if I use a clock or something as a RNG, and come up with some formula for raising 3x, 4x, 5x, or limping.

Great advice about following those unconscious instincts, everyone. There's something that I've developed, as an actor, that makes me pretty much more in tune with people than the average person is, and I really shouldn't talk myself into a call (unless I've correctly figured out where I am in the hand, what my outs are, odds and implied odds, and those things that I'm not good enough to put together just yet.)

Posted at 6:36PM on Jun 12th 2006 by wil

8. "The only way I'll do that is if I use a clock or something as a RNG, and come up with some formula for raising 3x, 4x, 5x, or limping."
I really prefer at least some variation of this method. You really do need to pay attention though so that you don't get caught in a pattern (I think a reasonable effort is enough). People move around enough in tournaments it's unlikely anyone will draw a bead on you. I randomize betting by using color and/or suit of the cards. e.g., If I get two black aces/kings/queens I make it 5x the bb, two red ones I make it 2x the BB, or one of each color I make it 3x.
You can create a different scale for different category hands.

Posted at 8:53PM on Jun 12th 2006 by joshman